Sex, Love, and Addiction

Staci Sprout, author of Naked in Public, therapist and speaker joins the show today to share her experience of over 24 years working with couples, individuals and groups on sex and love addiction. She discusses her current project, where she dedicates her time and expertise to train therapists on how to better work with females, and how to broach different perspectives and reasons for acting out. She and Rob also talk about cultural issues in dating, women using porn and ways people can find connection and love in a healthy and productive manner.   TAKEAWAYS: [2:40] Staci is a gender variant woman and doesn’t fit the typical bell curve profile of a female in recovery. There are certain qualities that have been typically more masculine in a traditional sense, such as identifying herself as an addict in her book Naked in Public. [4:41] Many women hate the term sex addict, and struggle with shame and oppression in society over their sexual identity in the first place. Others will identify with it almost as a badge of honor, which is more rare yet found in the younger generation. [6:31] The majority of female sex addicts tend to act in ways that are more in pursuit of unavailable partnerships, staying in abusive relationships, or other relationship and emotionally driven situations. [7:17] Staci wrote Naked in Public from the perspective of a female addict that we typically see in men. This includes behavior and a mindset leading to casual and unattached sex, typically with many partners. [12:17] The longing for love and connection is so powerful, and we can still be drawn into implicit longing and cravings if these needs are not met. A large part of Staci’s recovery is being able to do what she does consciously, and observe impulses and cravings without judgement or shame. [16:03] A woman that doesn't know how to date the right man isn’t broken, and shouldn’t give up on love. [17:23] One of the signs of mental dis-ease is when your emotions and intellect are out of balance, and you lose the ability to make a good intellectual choice. Having a supportive community that you can share with, is a human and healthy need. [21:44] Our culture is still waking up to the power of attachment, and open to learning new ways of picking partners and finding intimate and meaningful connections.   [25:44] As exposure to porn is getting younger, Staci cites a study where at least 1 in 3 women watch porn every week, and 1 in 10 every day. In an ever evolving technological world, therapists must find a way to factor in online addiction with the human needs in love and sex. [29:02] Rob and Staci discuss what dating is, and what it is not. Hands off, lights on! Enjoying coffee for an hour or two then parting ways is healthy, and part of the forgotten fun of courtship is taking your time to get to know someone.   [32:29] Distress tolerance is good for reclaiming the innocence of dating and vulnerability. Often times people move too quickly or give up on love entirely because of a past bad experience, having no clue how to date in the first place, or having no support to bounce ideas and fears off of.   RESOURCES Sex and Relationship Healing @RobWeissMSW Sex Addiction 101 Cruise Control: Understanding Sex Addiction in Gay Men Naked in Public Staci Sprout Sex and Relationship Healing Live Webinar Staci’s Support Group Marie Claire - How Porn Affects Women’s Lives   QUOTES: “We need to look at our language, and find a language that will help women feel seen, mirrored and valued.” “There’s just not enough female informed approaches, and then women I work with are always educating me.” “We can teach you how to love better, and find communities where you can get the love that you need without having the abuse accompany it.” “Sugar and sex are two of the things that kids have to reach to.” “Not all of us are the best picker. Sometimes we need help picking.” “One of the most important things is who someone lets close to them, both emotionally and physically.”  

Today on the podcast, Rob and his partner in crime (and healing), Tami explore a new model to treat the betrayed and hurting partners of sexual addicts - Prodependence. Rob has been immersed in the last few years in looking for a new model that moves beyond codependency, and helps to validate and support the partners of addicts, rather than pathologizing and blaming them. His new book, Prodependence: Moving Beyond Codependency, explains this model and the framework of attachment vs. trauma therapy and changes the lens from confrontational to invitational.   He and Tami answer questions about the formation of codependency in the 1980’s and how it evolved, the issues with the codependency model, explanation of the “crazy” state of an upset partner, and how Prodependence encourages loving in a manner exhibiting boundaries and self care.   TAKEAWAYS: [1:29] Rob’s book, Prodependence: Moving Beyond Codependency, will be out in September. Rob has been very invested in this topic over his many years as a therapist, including his PhD dissertation on codependency.   [2:06] Q: Why did Rob write Prodependence? A: For the first ten years that Rob was in practice from 1991 - 2001, partners of sex addicts were treated using codependency, the same model that was used for alcohol and drug addiction. This speaks to not just what is going on with the addict, but assumes that a partner’s distress and anger has to do with their own early life experiences instead of the trauma they feel from the addict’s behavior. Codependency says that we are working out and repeating patterns from unresolved relationships.   [3:45] There is an assumption, in the models we have been working with, that the partner is somehow in part responsible for maintaining addiction.   [5:21] Prodependence states that every action a partner or loved one takes - enabling, rescuing, even nagging, is acting out of love. It is the nature of relationships where we are attached, and looking out for our primary bond. When our primary bond is threatened, what seems like “crazy” behavior is really just the partner trying to step up and save their family.   [6:21] Codependency came out in the 1980’s, and became a big pop culture issue during the rise of feminism. It emphasized that partners look at themselves and take accountability, while prodepenence recognizes the partner is going through a major crisis and must be treated for the trauma happening in that present moment for at least the first 60-90 days.   [8:51] When we experience a loss and grieve, we have regrets and remorse as part of the process. It’s natural for partners to blame themselves, rather than realize they have been victimized. There is an emphasis in codependency to look at the partners behavior, and from that, surmise how they enabled the addict’s behavior.   [12:37] Prodepenency supports the proven fact that we do better in life, work and social situations when we have a stable relationship and attached bonds.   [13:35] In the early stages of treatment, it’s important to acknowledge the partner’s suffering and efforts to keep their family together.   [15:35] Q: Do you think that Codependence Treatment as a trauma based model can actually be counterproductive when working with loved ones of addicts? A: The essence of codependency is a trauma based and deficit based model. It says to the partner, you have some problems in the way you love, and pathologizes them to feel wrong and broken for the love they have been trying to show in order to save their family and marriage. Prodependency has empathy for the way they have been trying to love, and supports and teaches them to find a different way.   [21:33] When partners come in to seek help, they often have been lied to and had their suspicions doubted over a long period time. It’s not their early trauma that makes them feel “crazy”, it’s the thought of their whole world being a lie, or getting information that takes the bottom out of everything they have believed to be true.   [24:04] Prodependence says partners act “crazy” because they have been living in a crazy and traumatic situation and living with an active addict who has been lying, cheating and gaslighting them. That’s enough trauma for the first couple months of treatment, rather than spend time focusing on why they may be acting out from their own childhood.   [25:36] Q: Do you think a lot of therapists have evolved away from the true Codependence trauma based work, but have lacked the language to express this evolution, perhaps until now with Prodependence?   A: As the Codependence model evolved in the culture, the emphasis began to grow more on the partner’s responsibility for why their addict partner was acting out. Even though the field has naturally evolved its stance from blaming addicts partners, the only formal model that therapists have had has been codependency.   [28:51] The goals of Codependency for partners to take care of themselves, set better boundaries and love in a healthy way is well intentioned, but demoralizing and defeating as soon as they are blamed or there is something wrong with them.   [33:15] Someone in a crisis needs simple direction, support, validation and hope, which is what the Prodependence model offers.   RESOURCES Sex and Relationship Healing @RobWeissMSW Sex Addiction 101 Cruise Control: Understanding Sex Addiction in Gay Men Prodependence: Moving Beyond Codependency Women Who Love too Much Codependent No More Beyond Codependency   QUOTES: “A spouse will never be responsible for any behavior that an addict does.”   “I don’t believe that dependency is a bad thing. I think it’s a good thing. We lean into the people we love, and fill in each others weaknesses.”   “Partners of addicts are in crisis. People in a crisis need support, direction, education and hope. They don’t need to look at their own issues or history.”   “When this person that you love becomes a life trauma themselves, you are going to be traumatized and be in grief.”   “I don’t think any of us grow up learning how to love into a house on fire.”   “We know that trauma precipitates addiction, but that doesn't’ mean it precipitates addiction in a partner.”   “If you’re a mess, it’s because you’ve been living with an active addict.”  

In today’s episode, Rob digs in deeper on the topic of sexuality and sexual addiction in gay men. He discusses the different norms in gay vs. heterosexual communities, what determines an addictive or compulsive sexual behavior, and the specific challenges gay men have in building relationship intimacy. There are both many differences and similarities in how gay and straight men act out in addiction, and also specific knowledge therapists need to have when working with the gay population.   TAKEAWAYS: [1:39] When Rob entered the field of work in the Sexual Addiction and Compulsion in the 90’s, we were dealing with the height of the HIV crisis. Many of the men that were behaving in unsafe or promiscuous ways were sex addicts, and there were not a lot of educated experts to help them. [3:33] Rob wrote the book Cruise Control in 2003, which is the first and only book of its kind. In 2013, he updated it to include the present-day landscape of certain drug use such as methamphetamines, social media and hook up apps, and marriage. [4:56] Gay men exist in different cultural expectancies and behavioral patterns than the heterosexual population. There is also a lack of cultural validation over time for long-term intimacy building. [5:31] Many gay men have grown up being encouraged to appear a certain way and hide or deny their sexuality. They are already accustomed to having a front-facing presentation to the world of who they really are not, which is also a what sex addicts possess. [6:22] Most gay men don’t get to date in high school and end up repressing their sexuality, so there is a delayed adolescence and they often explore sexuality, relationships and intimacy starting in their 20’s. [7:02] Unfortunately in the gay world, there aren’t a lot of role models for healthy long term dating and relationship building. Younger men often don’t get to see what a healthy gay coupleship looks like, because once gay men find their partners they typically leave the singles scenes and join the paired up community. [8:34] The tendency for males to want to dominate and lead may not produce the same type of synergistic male / female relationship that produces empathy, intimacy and compassion. If two men want to be together, they will have to learn these skills and work on their affiliation. On the other hand, lesbians usually need help with individuation in relationships, as they tend to enmesh quickly in the beginning. [9:54] If an individual is demeaned and devalued for their sexuality, it is natural for them to internalize and act out against it. [11:11] We don’t talk about HIV or AIDS very much anymore, even though we lost 350,000 people before we got medication. The cultural response is almost as if it didn’t happen, and that is something that gay men live with every day. [12:18] Men share common characteristics on how they view sexuality, relationships and intimacy. The traumas that drive straight men to act out sexually are the same ones in gay men. Men are visual by nature, and it’s not unusual for gay men to have body issues, food issues and stresses among their physical image. [13:58] Gay men act out in similar ways as straight men, whether it’s a hookup app, webcams, a club, or a one-night stand. Grindr has been helpful of taking gay men out of dark alleys and put them on the same dating and relationship ground as heterosexuals. [18:03] The #2 leading addiction problem in America after opioid addiction is ChemSex. It’s difficult to compartmentalize what pieces belong to the sex addiction, and what pieces belong to drug addiction. Recovery from meth and sex addiction is a long and challenging process. [20:34] In treating gay male sex addicts, it is imperative for the therapist to know the lingo and how gay men view sexual experiences, not pathologize, and know that they will most likely need to learn intimacy. They will need guidance on finding places, hobbies activities to go to where they can grow their community, receive peer support and build their skills without being sexual. The therapist must be open to many non typical therapy topics such as sex toys, threesomes and open relationships. [23:04] Many times gay men believe part of being gay is having many sexual partners and experiences. That may be the case, but doesn’t have to be true for someone that is relationship and commitment seeking. [24:55] In the healing process where heterosexual and gay men are both present, the men bond together as men, rather than necessarily around sexualization or homophobia.   RESOURCES Sex and Relationship Healing @RobWeissMSW Sex Addiction 101 Cruise Control: Understanding Sex Addiction in Gay Men Shame Grindr The Urge to Merge   QUOTES: “Being a gay male who is a sex addict, it’s a difficult thing to identify, own and work past because of the cultural issues that are involved.”   “There are fewer cultural boundaries for potentially excessive sexual behavior among gay men.”   “Most gay men already know how to do that (have a front facing presentation of themselves that didn’t fully show who they are) because they grew up hiding their sexuality.”   “Homosexuals have not had the 2-3000 years of relationship building experiences and skills, because it has never been acceptable.   “Being a gay woman or man means you live in a subculture that is exposed to extensive cultural, legal, and religious oppression directly related to your sexuality.”   “It all adds up to the same thing if you are an addict - that hole in the soul that never gets filled up and you are always running looking for a rescue.”

Jonathon Taylor and Jackie Pack are on a mission to help people know what healthy dating and true intimacy look like. On today’s episode, they join Rob for a talk about their own journey as Licensed Therapists, their great work with One Layer Deeper, the common struggles they find from men and women moving from addiction to dating, the mistakes addicts make when they do go back in the dating pool, and their very own Dating Intensives.   TAKEAWAYS: [3:00] Addicts tend to pick up other people’s issues and focus on the person they are dating rather than themselves, possibly to control and evade feelings of isolation and lack of control. [6:04] One of the things that surprises Jonathon and Jackie most in their work is the wants, needs and desires men and women show in relationships that may have otherwise been clouded and buried in addiction. [7:19] When a sex addict goes out in the dating world without the flirtation, seduction and the need for control, they are actually quite vulnerable. That fear and anxiety is a large part of what addicts try to avoid. [10:20] Profound changes happen in addiction within a group dynamic with the common intention is getting sober and supporting individual recovery. It’s scary often times for individuals to move into the “wild” dating scene where heartbreak, emotion and intimacy must occur to feel genuinely loved and appreciated. [11:57] Jackie and Jonathon speak about their Intensives, and how the outcomes usually are deeper and wider than ever imagined. [14:44] Love addicts realize that dating is a numbers game, and often when the second or third date isn’t working out, they just give up. When in actuality, dating in recovery is conversation, a “get to know you” type of activity such as a walk in the park, and short periods of time where you get together and get to know someone. There are multiple reasons people date including friendship and companionship, rather than just being enmeshed or focused on sex. [19:46] Jonathon and Jackie help men and women become informed and authentic partners within their own relationships. Whereas before someone may have felt unlovable and hopeless, they teach their clients how to pick a date based on appreciating someone for their core values. [25:29] Octytocin is the hormone in our brain that bonds us to our loved ones, and often released on the women’s behalf typically during sex. In Jonathon and Jackie’s intensive, they coach women on dating to enjoy themselves rather than sole focus of becoming bonded and dependent on their partner. [30:20] Jackie defines trauma as “anything else than nurturing at critical points.”   RESOURCES Sex and Relationship Healing @RobWeissMSW Sex Addiction 101 Healing Paths Recovery If the Budda Dated If the Budda Married One Layer Deeper   QUOTES: “I see a lot of men early in recovery discover for the first time that they get to take a very active role in creating relationships, instead of the relationship just forming around them.” “It moves into a back and forth chess game into a really collaborative process.” “You have to have a little of that spark to date someone, but too much of it and you might not know who they are.” “Half the battle is not stopping the behavior, it’s learning to be intimate.”

Michelle Mays joins the podcast to talk about how the model of working with partners of addicts, her own story of partner betrayal and how it fueled her to make a positive impact in the field, her complex betrayal trauma model, and how partners that have been cheated on finding their way to healing themselves and find peace again.   Michelle runs PartnerHope site and has an amazing treatment center of her own, the Center for Relational Recovery.   TAKEAWAYS: [1:25] Michelle Mays received her Masters in Counseling in 2001 in Seattle, Washington where she then opened a private practice. In 2005 she crossed the country and moved back to Northern Virginia where she opened a private practice in Leesburg. One of Michelle’s passions is to educate and train other counselors to become excellent providers of care and healing for clients. In 2011 Michelle founded the Center for Relational Recovery, a counseling and training center focused on providing leading-edge treatment to sex addicts, partners of sex addicts, trauma survivors, and those struggling with relationship issues. [2:45] Michelle herself was in a relationship with someone that was a sex addict, so she had her own journey dealing with the hurt and struggle of getting help. She found that many people didn’t understand addiction treatment, and they minimized her confusion, pain, anger and distress. [8:23] When betrayed partners come in reeling from the pain of infidelity, they are in the middle of an unfolding trauma. Michelle realizes that it is a very visceral response, and it’s important for the therapist to realize they are seeing people in the middle of a crisis. [11:23] It’s important for therapists to notice their own stress levels and deal with them appropriately rather than trying to lessen someone’s pain due to their own internal feelings of overwhelm to a strong and emotional reaction. [13:13] Grief counselors know that people are blaming themselves and feeling a lot of remorse. Rob’s experience is that partners coming in who have just been betrayed also are experiencing grief, and therefore remorse. [14:51] Michelle has developed a model for working with complex betrayal trauma, which looks at three different components that bleed together. Attachment trauma affects the way your attachment system has been impacted by the betrayal, and how the healthy bond has been disrupted and impacted. When things are traumatic in the relationship, it deregulates the partner rather than providing a sense of safety. Emotional and psychological trauma which are the result of being lied to and being manipulated in your perception of reality. This creates doubt and is most definitely a form of abuse. Rob says the intention of the cheater is not to hurt their partner, in fact, they are not thinking about the other partner's emotions at all. They are trying to cover their own tracks, without much thought to anyone else’s feelings.   Sexual trauma ranges across the board and affects many facets of the partner’s identity and sexual confidence. [27:23] The betrayed partners must fully understand the depth of the betrayal, so they can know all the information, feel the pain and move on. Michelle says it takes at least a year for the betrayed partner to begin to feel like themselves again in the relationship. [27:48] When partners do detective work, they may find bits and pieces that hurt them more. It takes the other partner to sit down and tell them everything so they can get a full idea of what’s happening. [30:01] The more Michelle looks at research on attachment, the more she understands why such a high number of partners stay together after a betrayal. [30:30] On her website for betrayed partners, Partner Hope, Michelle has written about the shame that betrayed partners feel when deciding to stay. Our cultural story about leaving and never looking back is very different from the reality of what is happening. [33:11] At the Center for Relational Recovery, Michelle and her team treat the addict, partner and the relationship all at one time.   RESOURCES Sex and Relationship Healing @RobWeissMSW Sex Addiction 101 Prodependence: Moving Beyond Codependency Partner Hope Center for Relational Recovery michellemays@relationalrecovery.com   QUOTES: “There’s this idea that if your partner cheats on you and you’re female, you have either done something or not done something. This causes partners to internalize and feel an enormous amount of shame.” “When you have a partner coming in to your office, there is no post for them, they are usually mid-trauma.” “When people pair up in long-term relationships, they actually become one biological unit. You truly become an organism together.” “Most addicts and cheaters are caught in a dilemma because they have competing attachments, their partner and the cheating or affair partner.” “If you can’t bear to be sexual with your partner, there is something seriously wrong.” “Detective work and sleuthing is a way to have control over an out of control situation.”

Today Rob welcomes respected colleague and filmmaker, Paul Ginocchio. Paul talks about his work as an MFT and CSAT, and the intention and inspiration behind creating his film The Courage to Love. He and Rob dig deeper on the difference between sex addiction and offending, the positive emotional impact upon men that stand up and speak out about their sexual problems, and about how Paul himself moved forward to find healing and redemption in his own struggles.   Paul’s willingness to share and put himself out there has created a path for many to help rebuild their own lives and find recovery and love that they may have never thought possible.   TAKEAWAYS: [1:09] Paul is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist, MFT, CSAT, with a private practice in the San Francisco Bay area. He specializes in couples therapy, and the assessment and treatment of sexual addiction. Paul is also the creator of the film The Courage To Love, a pioneering documentary film about sex addiction that tells the personal journeys of four individuals from the shame of sexual addiction to the hope and healing of recovery. [5:07] In Paul’s personal case of sex addiction, he felt it became an almost pathological need for release and validation to gratify him as an individual and his own self-worth. In his teenage years, he felt like porn was the first red flag where he knew he was out of control, but didn’t know what the term for it was or where to even begin to seek help.   [6:25] Paul went to his first meeting in the Mission District in San Francisco during the mid 90’s, and tells his account of how intimidating the first experience of talking about his issue was to him. He was petrified but knew he had something in common with the guys, even though their particular story was different than his. It took him a few years of attending on and off before he fully committed to the 12-step program with Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous. [10:22] Paul encourages first-timers to commit to attending at least five meetings, and understand that it’s normal and natural to compare yourself to others in the room, both for better or worse. [11:49] Paul has a background in documentary filmmaking and possessed a love for making film and videos since childhood. As part of his 11-step he went to a 10 day silent meditation retreat, and the idea of the film and the title came to him as he was mid-retreat. He started shooting it 2007 while in grad school as a therapist, and first tried to pull from his connections within S.L.A.A, but quickly realized most people wanted to remain anonymous and weren’t ready to be public about their addiction and struggles. Despite his initial hesitation, he appeared as a subject in the video, and found Jay by googling “sex addiction memoirs”. Jay then introduced him to Greg, and years later Silvia got in touch and she was added, which has been a saving grace to connect females to the film. [15:56] Paul chose to go even beyond sex addiction and include Jay, who was an offender and who acts out in exhibitionism. [17:46] Exhibitionism and voyeurism are misdemeanor offenses, and often have highly addictive components. Sexual offending is exhibiting and engaging in nonconsensual sex and/or behavior. The Courage to Love film gives hope to the offender community, that there is a place to go and get help. [21:46] Paul talks about how the film has affected his work as a therapist, and the ability for the stories in the film to inspire others to open up and share their own stories. If he had to make a new film today, he would broaden the perspective to include the partner and spouses of addicts and couples in recovery. [30:15] The landscape of today’s modern digital age produces a much different plight than over the recent decades.   RESOURCES Sex and Relationship Healing @RobWeissMSW Sex Addiction 101 Out of the Doghouse Out of the Doghouse for Christian Men The Courage To Love The Courage to Love on Amazon The Courage to Love on YouTube S.L.A.A. Erica Garza - Getting Off Robert Weiss on Megyn Kelly Today Discussing Female Sex Addiction Paul Ginocchio   QUOTES: “All of us were out of control at some point in our journey, and personally crazy in the world around sex.”  - PG “To hear other men talk about their struggles and their emotions, there was a part of me that thought it was awesome, yet terrifying as well.” - PG “I bumped up against this closet of shame that I thought wasn’t going to be there because I knew so many people for so many years in recovery.”  - PG “The secrecy of the disease of addiction is part of the stigma.”  - RW “The only understanding I had of sex addiction was my own journey, and all that I read.” - PG “A therapist is only as good as the work they have done on themselves.” - RW “When we get to diffuse that shame and that self-hatred and give people hope, change happens quickly.” - RW

Dr. Carol Clark, Board Certified Sex Therapist and Board Certified Transgender Care Therapist, joins Ron for a talk on human sexuality, addiction and intimacy. She and Rob discuss what it really means to be a sex addict, the difference between true addiction and a behavior that is deemed unacceptable, and how we face, process, and move forward in situations that are often confusing and difficult.   Lastly, Dr. Clark shares the variety of interventions that she currently uses to assist clients seeking personal growth and mental health. She is Certified in Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing and specializes in treating sex addiction and gender dysphoria.   TAKEAWAYS: [3:51] Dr. Clark gets a lot of questions relating to sexuality and sexual identity from both couples and individuals. She breaks down the definition and meaning behind the words “gay”, “bixsexual” and “homosexuality”, and how they relate to sex and gender, and addiction. [5:03] Dr. Clark defines addiction as, “obsessive compulsive, out of control behavior done in spite of negative consequences to self or others.” In a sex addiction, sex is the drug of choice. There are many aspects to sexuality and attraction, including development in puberty and adolescent stage of life. To fully know if someone is an addict, there is much to be discovered, history to uncover and analyzing the energy that goes into the behavior. [9:56] When we get stuck at different parts of life, we must address the trauma, no matter how small. It’s traumatic for an individual to question their orientation with their loved ones denying their feelings or even threatening impending consequences if they were to follow their impulses. Rob sees people from very conservative or morality driven environments struggle with sexuality more than people who don’t come from those environments. [11:54] When someone is looking to get help, or even just to uncover what may be going on with their own arousal or orientation issues, it is important they seek someone that has education in Human Sexuality. [14:27] Whereas intimacy is about connection, addiction is about disconnection. Rob quotes a friend, “Sex for sex addicts, with a partner who they are really committed to, is not about being horny, it’s about being willing.” A lot of sex addicts are so used to being immediately aroused by a new stimulus, they often feel disappointed when they don’t feel that with their long term steady partners. [16:28] Dr. Clark’s book, Addict America: The Lost Connection, explores our culture’s tendency to look externally for internal validation. This never fills us, and sends us into an addictive place, seeking more with no success. [18:25] Rob explains the term secondary gains, and how for some people it may be just a simple behavior such as going to get a drink, or having sex as a way to foster intimacy and connection. For others, they will do a behavior to try and fill their void, or numb their pain. [23:21] Dr. Clark says that when someone comes in to her office who has been encouraged to deny or push away any part of who they inherently are, there is much work to be done. [23:40] Dr. Clark helps her clients process negative events and turn them around through EMDR, or Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. After they reprocess the old memories, they can move forward and explore what is congruent with their own beliefs. [30:43] No couples are going to agree 100% of the time on sexual desires and what makes them aroused. Dr. Clark and Rob both agree that what is important is the communication between partners to identify what works for that particular relationship. The world of sex addiction is becoming less rigid about a one size fits all approach for everyone, and becoming articulated towards what works for that individual and their love lives.   RESOURCES Sex and Relationship Healing @RobWeissMSW Sex Addiction 101 Out of the Doghouse Out of the Doghouse for Christian Men Addict America: The Lost Connection Hannah Gadsby iicsphd@gmail.com Clinical Sexology Phd Therapy Certification Training   QUOTES: “It comes back to behavior and what the thoughts are behind that behavior.” “Addiction is about objectification. A sex addiction is about addiction more than sex.” “Just because you don’t like something around your sexual behavior doesn’t mean it’s addiction.” “I’d like you to think about sex as an expression of intimacy, and being open and connected with another person.” “We would like sex with a partner to be about intimacy and connection.” “Our addiction is stimulation, that is really what we get addicted to.” “We are born to be optimally sexual, and then we get messages about what is okay, and what’s not okay, and we do have some of the hard wiring.”

In a world of self-centered social media and “it’s about me” culture, the work Tara Lemasters is doing is of utmost importance. Tara is a Licensed Therapist and an expert on the issue of narcissism, what it is and what it’s not, and our need to understand more deeply what a diagnosis of narcissism means. She and Rob also discuss when exhibitions of narcissism are normal and healthy vs. when self-obsession begins to take a turn into something much darker, and the difference between narcissist self-obsession and real empathy.   TAKEAWAYS: [1:24] Narcissism is almost something that is correlated with addiction. Most people that have problems with drugs and alcohol also have problems with how they see themselves. [2:05] Over the past 5 years, the term narcissism has become embraced in every relationship situation in our culture. The problem is not the word itself, but when a narcissist finds themselves more attached to their needs and addictions then the people they care about, with no fear of suffering consequences. [4:00] The term Narcissism is derived from Narcissus, a figure from Greek Mythology. This mythical being was so handsome that he fell in love with his own image reflected in a pool of water. [4:53] Our material and outward focused culture supports narcissism and the belief of “I must have / get more to succeed and be liked.” Social media also supports the tendency for us to show off or portray certain things to get likes or shares, making us feel more important and connected. [6:22] Rob explains how every addict is a narcissist when engaged in their addictions. It shows up in sex addicts when it is an abandonment of core values and beliefs, at the expense of compartmentalizing what they want, when they want it. The addicts puts the need to satisfy their own needs above others, and hide it so they can have their cake and eat it too. [9:38] Tara believes that the process of healing is a process of creating greater empathy for oneself personally, and for the people in their life that their actions have an impact on. When Tara’s clients start to experience grief regarding how their actions have affected who they loved ones, a crack of empathy starts to come through. [11:20] In the early stages of healing, Rob often sees narcissist self-obsession, where the addict is worried or upset about how judgements hurts and affects them, and their self image. Later on in the healing process, when they feel true empathy, the focus will be on how their actions impacted their loved ones. [13:14] Expectations do not always reflect reality when a partner wishes for their narcissist partner to heal and deal with their issue quickly. It may often take a while, and this can be very frustrating for a partner whose world has been shattered. Tara recommends that the hurt partner focus as much as they can on self-care and finding support of their own. [19:57] Narcissistic people tend to lack empathy, so they will do whatever pleases them the most, and not think about how that affects the people around them. There is a difference between narcissism and sociopathy, where narcissism tend to have intact remorse which may be brought out during treatment, but sociopaths are incapable of feeling empathy whatsoever. [24:46] Most men are problem solvers, and want to fix the problem they created. Their version of making things better may be radically different than how long it takes for their partner to heal from the hurt of their actions. [30:49] After a betrayal and initial trust is broken, it can never be the same again. Partners must rebuild together from the ground up, and it’s very similar to rebuilding a house from scratch.   RESOURCES Sex and Relationship Healing @RobWeissMSW Sex Addiction 101 Out of the Doghouse Out of the Doghouse for Christian Men Narcissus in Greek Mythology Tara LeMasters   QUOTES: “Narcissism implies that the externals is going to help determine how you think of me. Our culture certainly supports that.”   “An addict by definition is a narcissist.”   “Real empathy is not about you at all. It’s about understanding what others are going through as a result of how you treated them.”  

Dr. James Wadley is on a mission to bring openness and community to those from all walks of life that may otherwise have shied away from stepping forward to get help for themselves or their families. He is an advocate and voice for healing across the world and is passionate about working with both those in the community and training the professional leaders that work with them. He is an Associate Professor and Director of the Master of Human Services program at The Lincoln University and licensed professional counselor in Pennsylvania and New Jersey. He is the founding editor of the scholarly, interdisciplinary journal, the Journal of Black Sexuality and Relationships (University of Nebraska Press).   Dr. Wadley talks with Rob about his background in education and educational leadership, his program development to help African Americans know where to turn when seeking treatment, and ways to improve the current structure so everyone feels welcome and deserving to be part of whatever it is that will serve them towards their health. He and Rob also discuss the ways that African American communities are typically underserved when it comes to mental health and addiction programs, especially sexual addiction, how we can help minorities step out of the hidden secrets of addiction and into the light of healing and hope.   TAKEAWAYS: [2:52] Dr. Wadley has worked with African Americans and minority groups for many decades, and still finds misconceptions, and mistrust around the community and medical and mental health professions. It is great for someone struggling to get initial support and advice from a member in the community or social group, but non-medical help can only go so far, and oftentimes their response comes from a pre existing belief, stereotype or myth. [5:06] Dr. Wadley and his colleagues actively try to work towards people having a “sex positive” approach towards sexuality. This means facing and dealing with the stigma and trauma of sexual expression in the African decent, whether it’s stereotypes surrounding the community, or the way they express their own sexual identity. [7:16] Rob and Dr. Wadley run into the same type of problems, but in different ways. Minority groups tend to not seek out professional help for their issue, and even when they do, the factor of access and finding a professional of a similar minority is usually of importance as well. [8:18] Although other cultures deal with sexual addiction just as much as the white culture, there are several factors that make up why they seek professional and 12-step treatment groups less. First, if they walk in and see that they are the only representative of their minority, they are less likely to open up and share, thus reducing the likelihood of ever returning again. [11:08] Dr. Wadley finds that spending time in the community is a way to at least open the conversation with people regarding their sexual behavior and help them get their guard down to see that there is no judgement or stigma around seeking help. [15:08] Dr. Wadley credits a lot of his success to the positive and inspirational people around him. [18:02] Although the communities may be different, the pain and shame of addiction is the same across the board no matter race or ethnicity. The top sexual issues among Rob’s young male clients are the same as Dr. Wadley’s - online porn, hookup apps, traditional affair / anonymous sex and prostitutes. Seeking out help online is better for anonymity, but individuals must be in the know that they are expected to share vulnerably everything they are dealing with. [21:22] Rob and Dr. Wadley discuss the difference of options when a couple has financial means and resources vs. when they need to stay together because divorce or separating just isn’t an option financially. [26:42] On a recent trip to Cuba, Dr. Wadley appreciated how he could fully experience the culture, as it is one of the few places that hasn’t been colonized.   RESOURCES Sex and Relationship Healing @RobWeissMSW Sex Addiction 101 Dr. James Wadley The Journal of Black Sexuality and Relationships Association of Black Sexologists and Clinicians Lincoln University Dr. Wadley on Twitter phdjamesw@yahoo.com   QUOTES: “While people in the community may be able to listen and give advice, they are not mental health professionals.”   “My work is to try my best to empower not only those people who are indigenous to the community, but also to work with the folks who work with folks in those communities in having a level of acceptance and appreciation towards diversity.”   “Minorities tend to want to keep their problems to themselves.”   “I allow my spirit to lead me.”   We as therapists and healers have to figure out how to provide access to those folks who probably can’t afford us.”  

Today’s topic is one of the most important, yet least covered subjects matter in sex addiction - redemption. Rob is joined by special guest Tom Ryan to talk about recovery, hope, the dichotomy of holding a position of power and prestige when dealing with an addiction, and when it’s okay to not get it right the first time, or the second. Tom is a spiritual community leader, father, husband and has much to share on the struggles of living a hidden life of denial and escapism. Tom is the author of Ashamed No More, and is Founding and Executive Director of Living Integrated, an organization that helps individuals with compulsive sexual behaviors find hope and healing by integrating their spirituality with healthy recovery practices.   TAKEAWAYS: [2:10] Tom attended the University of Missouri and earned a bachelor’s degree in education. He got involved with a youth ministry at a local church, and that led him to follow his divine calling to professional ministry. His life was a true dichotomy between spirituality, religion and the struggle of a compulsive sexual addiction. [7:45] Sex addiction can escalate and grow. Tom found himself continuously drawing the line of his boundaries further away from his morals, and then feeling the guilt and shame that came along with the emptiness and loneliness of living a secret addicted life. There is a tendency to call someone a hypocrite, liar or fraud instead of someone that is deeply struggling with painful issues. [11:14] Tom found help and visited a therapist, who recommended the book Out of the Shadows by Dr. Patrick Carnes. He cites the experience of discovering this work as “breathtaking”, because it showed him that he wasn’t alone, and he wasn’t a failure. [15:39] Tom and Rob discuss the disconnection and isolation that comes with addiction. Much like eating potato chips when you are hungry, you are satisfying an urge with an impulse that in the long run isn’t good or healthy for you, and doesn’t make you any less hungry than when you first started. [16:45] Tom and his therapist worked together to help Tom find a trusted friend to listen to his real story, and one who he could share his vulnerability with, and who would show up for Tom. [21:06] Tom shares how he came out to his wife as an addict, and the impact the disclosure had on his healing and marriage. Years later, Tom learned a lot, progressed through his treatment,  but still felt ashamed that he didn’t have sustained sobriety, and his public persona didn’t honor who he was privately. [28:27] Tom hit his lowest point in 2008 when he was arrested. He felt ashamed that he had already been in treatment and been out as an addict to his loved ones, and still was acting out. [31:56] Many of the other faith leaders both Rob and Tom have worked with hold a sincere motivation to help others and follow their calling, but are stuck in the negative loop of their addiction, and often find it even harder to get help due to their elevated position. [32:02] In addition to Tom coming back on the show, there is a possibility of “Tom’s Corner” on Rob’s website, Sex and Relationship Healing. This will be a safe space for religious leaders and workers to connect with others and talk about their addiction, no matter what point of it they are currently at.   RESOURCES Sex and Relationship Healing @RobWeissMSW Sex Addiction 101 Mark Salling Tom Ryan TC-Ryan Dr. Patrick Carnes Out of the Shadows by Dr. Patrick Carnes Ashamed No More by Tom Ryan   Living Integrated   QUOTES: “You can get past your consequences. You can have a life beyond the problem you are in right now.” “What was satisfying and distracting now no longer is, and you want a little bit more.” “Sex addicts have a varsity level skill of compartmentalization.” “When I’m living in the shadows, it's amazing what I’m willing to do, and when I think I’m living in the light, it’s amazing what I’m not willing to do.” “Part of the grandiosity of the disease is we think there is nobody quite as big a failure as we are.” “My persona was still a performance persona, even though I wanted to be genuine and sincere. And it was eating me alive.” “There is that tendency for all of us to look at someone in town who is supposed to be the moral sheriff in town and say “ ‘Oh my gosh, what a loser, hypocrite, and liar.’ “ But many times these are sincere servants who really wanted to help others and honor their vows and commitments, but found themselves in this diabolical catch in life.” “The gifts are there, but we have to get out of our own way. Covering up and hiding it doesn’t do anything.”