Sex, Love, and Addiction

Addiction, Impulsivity, and the Commitment to Change with Paula Hall

Since Paula Hall’s work in the field began over 15 years ago, she has seen many shifts in the way we treat and educate surrounding sexual addiction and sexual impulsivity. She is now a leader, and between her own work at The Laurel Centre, her 9 published books and her team of 20 people in growing locations, she is a voice for change and empathy for both men and women struggling with addiction. She talks today about the difference in approach that the UK has towards addiction, gives a sneak peek into her upcoming book Sex Addiction: A Guide for Couples, and what she sees for the future of giving individuals and couples hope and direction.   TAKEAWAYS: [2:09] At a time when she was working in private practice, Paula attended a sex therapy conference and saw there were just a handful of speakers on the subject. Once she saw it was being recognized as an addiction with pragmatic relapse strategies and recovery work, it made sense to apply this model. Since she was familiar in working with the model of drug addiction, she decided to further her training in sexual addiction. [4:08] It took Paula four years to get her first book published, as every publisher she went to said there was no market in sex addiction. [7:55] The US and UK come from different directions in the field of sexual addiction. Awareness of sexual compulsivity and addiction came in America through the lens of addiction. In England, the concept came out of sexology, where sex in all of it’s non offensive forms are considered healthy and normative. In the UK, the 12 Steps are used in chemical addiction treatment, but not heavily for sexual addiction treatment and recovery. [10:56] To Rob, the word “addiction” means access to a lifelong resource of free support, examples of recovery and shame reduction. If we de-stigmatize addiction and the connotations that the 12 Steps must be done in accordance with religion, that may help the negative associations that go along with the treatment. [14:15] In Europe they are more liberal in certain ways, but when you have more choice it brings more responsibility. The challenge Paula sees is one of seeing moderation as prudish and limiting. [16:38] Writing Sex Addiction: The Guide for Couples was the hardest book Paula has ever written, primarily because working with couples is a multi layered and complex experience. There are two people with different perspectives and fractured agenda on the past, present and future. Paula reminds us there are some things you can not compromise on - two examples are values and children. [22:04] Paula uses the metaphor of a ship that has been hit by a tidal wave to describe what happens to couples when there is a betrayal or sex addiction All crew members must scramble to safety, and drag the relationship back to the harbor to assess the damage without creating any more damage. Then, it is hard work and dedication to get every aspect of intimacy back, building it up from the ground floor.   RESOURCES Sex and Relationship Healing @RobWeissMSW Sex Addiction 101 Cruise Control: Understanding Sex Addiction in Gay Men Prodependence: Moving Beyond Codependency Understanding and Treating Sex Addiction: A comprehensive guide for people who struggle with sex addiction and those who want to help them by Paula Hall Sex Addiction and the Partners Perspective A Comprehensive Guide to Understanding and Surviving Sex Addiction For Partners and Those Who Want to Help Them by Paula Hall We Need to Talk About Sex Addiction - TEDx The Laurel Center   QUOTES: “Conservatism and moral issues in American culture make it so much easier to pathologize or call things sex addiction that aren’t”.  - R “In the UK we aren’t pathologizing sexual diversity, because most of us are trained in it.” “Couples work has been the hardest work I have ever done. There is nothing like the couple with sex addiction.” “If you do really good work as a therapist, you are no longer needed.” “Quite literally, often times one partner finds a freedom at a the cost of their partner.”

Codependence vs. Prodependence with Carol the Coach

Carol Juergensen Sheets, aka “Carol the Coach”, has a passion for understanding trauma, disconnection and isolation, and using her gifts to help both sex addicts and betrayed partners through their darkest moments and into the light of healing. She also loves to use media and broadcasting to spread her message to millions, in a judgment and blame freeway. Today, she talks with Rob about her work in partner focused treatment, her radio show on Blog Talk Radio that receives more than half a million listeners weekly, the concept of blame, guilt and remorse in addiction and the shift she has seen in the field over the past decade. Carol has a deep enthusiasm for her work, and it is apparent in her work as a therapist, coach, media personality or caring member of the community.   TAKEAWAYS: [3:32] Carol has an affinity for disseminating information to the public on a wide scale. Her podcast is one of the oldest, and now has half a million downloads per week. She helps people globally, interviews leading experts and helps colleagues and clinicians gather cutting edge education to bring back in their work.   [7:26] Carol compiled a book in sex addiction, Sexual Addiction: Wisdom from the Masters, that she donated to the American Federation of Research. This body of work served to share the wisdom on a wide range of topics on addiction, compulsion and partner betrayal.   8:16] When Dr. Patrick Carnes appeared on Carol’s radio show, he brought up the notion that suffering and trauma of addiction and betrayal can actually be a precursor for growth, healing and connection.   [9:46] If a partner is acting out and is in a deep and enduring relationship, there is a higher chance they will feel remorse than an individual that is unable to connect. Relationships provide a depth of learning, and isolation continues the process of sexual addiction.   [10:45] It it often helpful for partners to hear that the compulsions and of their sex addict partner started earlier than their relationship. This may help take a large burden of remorse off their backs, and realize they did not cause the behavior and it was present long before their coupling.   [12:18] Carol shares how she noticed a shift in the field around 2007 in how the partners were acknowledged in their deep pain, and not blamed from a model of codependence and causation. She began in to invite them in to her sessions, and realized they needed their own specialized help. She got involved with APSATS, The Association of Partners of Sex Addicts Trauma Specialists, and within a year was training her own colleagues. Partner betrayal is still seen as a deficit area, and Carol supports crisis management both separately AND together between the partner and the addict.   [17:01] Conflict breeds intimacy when partners are able to work through their grief and restore and develop a foundation of safety and stabilization. Once there is full disclosure in the early couples recovery work, couples can begin to work on empathy. The addict must acknowledge the issues, validate the partner’s feelings and reassure the partner that he or she can begin to feel safe. Partners  also must work through their shame, or the blame from others around them from staying with a sex addict.   [21:55] Carol speaks upon an older model that looked at partners with the same need for confrontation as their sex addict partners, even adding the label of codependence. Now, we realize that this is a person in crisis reacting to the betrayal trauma, and they need support rather than blame.   [29:27] Remorse is a natural part of grief, and it is common for the spouse to already blame themselves on some level for their partner’s betrayal. Carol works with her clients on building up their sense of worth and belief that they are deserving of honesty, truth and love.   RESOURCES Sex and Relationship Healing @RobWeissMSW Sex Addiction 101 Cruise Control: Understanding Sex Addiction in Gay Men Prodependence: Moving Beyond Codependency APSATS American Federation of Medical Research Your Sexually Addicted Spouse: How Partners Can Cope and Heal Sex Addiction: Wisdom from the Masters Esther Perel Carol the Coach carol@carolthecoach.com Sex Help with Carol the Coach Sex Help with Carol the Coach - You Tube Blog Talk Radio - Sex Help with Carol the Coach Betrayal Recovery Radio   QUOTES: “With sexual addiction and partner trauma, we aren’t going to get as far as we need to go unless we have the research to substantiate what we know to be true.”   “Suffering can be the precursor for post traumatic growth.” “Isolation is at the root of sexual addiction.” “The addict carries the shame, but the partner carries the pain.” - Esther Perel In any coupleship, there are issues that both people contribute towards or contaminate. Sexual addiction is not one of them.” “Connection is the antidote to suffering.”

Love is Everlasting with Dr. Harville Hendrix

Dr. Harville Hendrix is an international expert in the field of human intimacy and human relationships, and is dedicated to teaching individuals what love is in both feeling and action. Today, he talks about the crucial steps in a relationship before love can even enter the picture, and the interesting way our unconscious minds match us with our partners.   He and his wife Helen authored the best-seller Getting the Love You Want, and draw from over 40 years of working with couples to get to the root of how we can be curious instead of judgemental and find ourselves through our relationships. Lastly, they talk about Imago, their work in education and their work helping couples understand each other even in the most painful of circumstances.   TAKEAWAYS: [2:54] Even before love happens in a relationship, there must be a differentiation process where we become aware that our partner is not a figment of our imagination here on this earth to love us in exactly the manners we think are best. Until that process occurs, real love cannot yet be born. [5:07] The highest divorce rate is year 7. [5:54] During courtship and early stages of marriage, partners have a tendency to conform to the “perfect person” for their partner. [6:52] Polar energy is needed for interest, and if we end up marrying the exact same type of person as us, that will lead to a couple feeling disinterested, not challenged and eventually disengaged. [8:52] We tend to unconsciously seek out our partners for the same needs we are looking to find in our caretakers. Caretakers may be neglectful or intrusive, and this absence occurs both in single family homes and intact homes. [10:10] It’s typically about 2 years in to a relationship when we see real differences start to come out, the fantasy is unmasked and the partner is left triggered, confused, and anxious. This need for the symbiotic relationship to be back may often lead to compensatory behaviors. [13:01] If we become curious instead of reactive, that will lead us to really understand our partner, and see both them and ourselves clearly. [16:31] It is a huge loss when couples see the illusion, and walk away from an opportunity. [18:31] 20 out of 50 states have mandatory sexual education in schools, and of the 20 states, 12 require parental consent. [20:17] Dr. Hendrix recounts a story about a couple he met that was from an arranged marriage, and he found they had similar expectations and challenges than a couple that met organically. [24:41] Context is just as important as the self, and what gives birth to the individual. [26:39] Imago Relationship Therapy has been in the culture for 30 years, and is a three step dialog process to help people connect, talk and listen. [32:40] Talking can be the the most dangerous thing people do. Dr. Hendrix is concerned with strengthening the health, safety and dialogue of a couple when he is working with them. [35:06] Learning better relationship and conversational skills is something that can benefit people both in personal and professional relationships.   RESOURCES Sex and Relationship Healing @RobWeissMSW Sex Addiction 101 Cruise Control: Understanding Sex Addiction in Gay Men Getting the Love You Want Harville & Helen Five Stages of Grief Safe Conversations Leadership Training Imago Imago Training Relationships First   QUOTES: “Love has to be love of the real, rather than love of the fantasy.” “There is a collusion to become symbiotic with each other.” “Instead of judgement and criticism, we can shift to curiosity.” “When the energy dies and the love dies, now is the time for growth to begin.” “If you do not feel safe with your partner, you can not connect with your partner.”

Women in Sex and Love Addiction with Staci Sprout

Staci Sprout, author of Naked in Public, therapist and speaker joins the show today to share her experience of over 24 years working with couples, individuals and groups on sex and love addiction. She discusses her current project, where she dedicates her time and expertise to train therapists on how to better work with females, and how to broach different perspectives and reasons for acting out. She and Rob also talk about cultural issues in dating, women using porn and ways people can find connection and love in a healthy and productive manner.   TAKEAWAYS: [2:40] Staci is a gender variant woman and doesn’t fit the typical bell curve profile of a female in recovery. There are certain qualities that have been typically more masculine in a traditional sense, such as identifying herself as an addict in her book Naked in Public. [4:41] Many women hate the term sex addict, and struggle with shame and oppression in society over their sexual identity in the first place. Others will identify with it almost as a badge of honor, which is more rare yet found in the younger generation. [6:31] The majority of female sex addicts tend to act in ways that are more in pursuit of unavailable partnerships, staying in abusive relationships, or other relationship and emotionally driven situations. [7:17] Staci wrote Naked in Public from the perspective of a female addict that we typically see in men. This includes behavior and a mindset leading to casual and unattached sex, typically with many partners. [12:17] The longing for love and connection is so powerful, and we can still be drawn into implicit longing and cravings if these needs are not met. A large part of Staci’s recovery is being able to do what she does consciously, and observe impulses and cravings without judgement or shame. [16:03] A woman that doesn't know how to date the right man isn’t broken, and shouldn’t give up on love. [17:23] One of the signs of mental dis-ease is when your emotions and intellect are out of balance, and you lose the ability to make a good intellectual choice. Having a supportive community that you can share with, is a human and healthy need. [21:44] Our culture is still waking up to the power of attachment, and open to learning new ways of picking partners and finding intimate and meaningful connections.   [25:44] As exposure to porn is getting younger, Staci cites a study where at least 1 in 3 women watch porn every week, and 1 in 10 every day. In an ever evolving technological world, therapists must find a way to factor in online addiction with the human needs in love and sex. [29:02] Rob and Staci discuss what dating is, and what it is not. Hands off, lights on! Enjoying coffee for an hour or two then parting ways is healthy, and part of the forgotten fun of courtship is taking your time to get to know someone.   [32:29] Distress tolerance is good for reclaiming the innocence of dating and vulnerability. Often times people move too quickly or give up on love entirely because of a past bad experience, having no clue how to date in the first place, or having no support to bounce ideas and fears off of.   RESOURCES Sex and Relationship Healing @RobWeissMSW Sex Addiction 101 Cruise Control: Understanding Sex Addiction in Gay Men Naked in Public Staci Sprout Sex and Relationship Healing Live Webinar Staci’s Support Group Marie Claire - How Porn Affects Women’s Lives   QUOTES: “We need to look at our language, and find a language that will help women feel seen, mirrored and valued.” “There’s just not enough female informed approaches, and then women I work with are always educating me.” “We can teach you how to love better, and find communities where you can get the love that you need without having the abuse accompany it.” “Sugar and sex are two of the things that kids have to reach to.” “Not all of us are the best picker. Sometimes we need help picking.” “One of the most important things is who someone lets close to them, both emotionally and physically.”  

Prodependence: Moving Beyond Codependency with Dr. Rob and Tami

Today on the podcast, Rob and his partner in crime (and healing), Tami explore a new model to treat the betrayed and hurting partners of sexual addicts - Prodependence. Rob has been immersed in the last few years in looking for a new model that moves beyond codependency, and helps to validate and support the partners of addicts, rather than pathologizing and blaming them. His new book, Prodependence: Moving Beyond Codependency, explains this model and the framework of attachment vs. trauma therapy and changes the lens from confrontational to invitational.   He and Tami answer questions about the formation of codependency in the 1980’s and how it evolved, the issues with the codependency model, explanation of the “crazy” state of an upset partner, and how Prodependence encourages loving in a manner exhibiting boundaries and self care.   TAKEAWAYS: [1:29] Rob’s book, Prodependence: Moving Beyond Codependency, will be out in September. Rob has been very invested in this topic over his many years as a therapist, including his PhD dissertation on codependency.   [2:06] Q: Why did Rob write Prodependence? A: For the first ten years that Rob was in practice from 1991 - 2001, partners of sex addicts were treated using codependency, the same model that was used for alcohol and drug addiction. This speaks to not just what is going on with the addict, but assumes that a partner’s distress and anger has to do with their own early life experiences instead of the trauma they feel from the addict’s behavior. Codependency says that we are working out and repeating patterns from unresolved relationships.   [3:45] There is an assumption, in the models we have been working with, that the partner is somehow in part responsible for maintaining addiction.   [5:21] Prodependence states that every action a partner or loved one takes - enabling, rescuing, even nagging, is acting out of love. It is the nature of relationships where we are attached, and looking out for our primary bond. When our primary bond is threatened, what seems like “crazy” behavior is really just the partner trying to step up and save their family.   [6:21] Codependency came out in the 1980’s, and became a big pop culture issue during the rise of feminism. It emphasized that partners look at themselves and take accountability, while prodepenence recognizes the partner is going through a major crisis and must be treated for the trauma happening in that present moment for at least the first 60-90 days.   [8:51] When we experience a loss and grieve, we have regrets and remorse as part of the process. It’s natural for partners to blame themselves, rather than realize they have been victimized. There is an emphasis in codependency to look at the partners behavior, and from that, surmise how they enabled the addict’s behavior.   [12:37] Prodepenency supports the proven fact that we do better in life, work and social situations when we have a stable relationship and attached bonds.   [13:35] In the early stages of treatment, it’s important to acknowledge the partner’s suffering and efforts to keep their family together.   [15:35] Q: Do you think that Codependence Treatment as a trauma based model can actually be counterproductive when working with loved ones of addicts? A: The essence of codependency is a trauma based and deficit based model. It says to the partner, you have some problems in the way you love, and pathologizes them to feel wrong and broken for the love they have been trying to show in order to save their family and marriage. Prodependency has empathy for the way they have been trying to love, and supports and teaches them to find a different way.   [21:33] When partners come in to seek help, they often have been lied to and had their suspicions doubted over a long period time. It’s not their early trauma that makes them feel “crazy”, it’s the thought of their whole world being a lie, or getting information that takes the bottom out of everything they have believed to be true.   [24:04] Prodependence says partners act “crazy” because they have been living in a crazy and traumatic situation and living with an active addict who has been lying, cheating and gaslighting them. That’s enough trauma for the first couple months of treatment, rather than spend time focusing on why they may be acting out from their own childhood.   [25:36] Q: Do you think a lot of therapists have evolved away from the true Codependence trauma based work, but have lacked the language to express this evolution, perhaps until now with Prodependence?   A: As the Codependence model evolved in the culture, the emphasis began to grow more on the partner’s responsibility for why their addict partner was acting out. Even though the field has naturally evolved its stance from blaming addicts partners, the only formal model that therapists have had has been codependency.   [28:51] The goals of Codependency for partners to take care of themselves, set better boundaries and love in a healthy way is well intentioned, but demoralizing and defeating as soon as they are blamed or there is something wrong with them.   [33:15] Someone in a crisis needs simple direction, support, validation and hope, which is what the Prodependence model offers.   RESOURCES Sex and Relationship Healing @RobWeissMSW Sex Addiction 101 Cruise Control: Understanding Sex Addiction in Gay Men Prodependence: Moving Beyond Codependency Women Who Love too Much Codependent No More Beyond Codependency   QUOTES: “A spouse will never be responsible for any behavior that an addict does.”   “I don’t believe that dependency is a bad thing. I think it’s a good thing. We lean into the people we love, and fill in each others weaknesses.”   “Partners of addicts are in crisis. People in a crisis need support, direction, education and hope. They don’t need to look at their own issues or history.”   “When this person that you love becomes a life trauma themselves, you are going to be traumatized and be in grief.”   “I don’t think any of us grow up learning how to love into a house on fire.”   “We know that trauma precipitates addiction, but that doesn't’ mean it precipitates addiction in a partner.”   “If you’re a mess, it’s because you’ve been living with an active addict.”  

Cruise Control: Understanding Sex Addiction in Gay Men with Dr. Rob

In today’s episode, Rob digs in deeper on the topic of sexuality and sexual addiction in gay men. He discusses the different norms in gay vs. heterosexual communities, what determines an addictive or compulsive sexual behavior, and the specific challenges gay men have in building relationship intimacy. There are both many differences and similarities in how gay and straight men act out in addiction, and also specific knowledge therapists need to have when working with the gay population.   TAKEAWAYS: [1:39] When Rob entered the field of work in the Sexual Addiction and Compulsion in the 90’s, we were dealing with the height of the HIV crisis. Many of the men that were behaving in unsafe or promiscuous ways were sex addicts, and there were not a lot of educated experts to help them. [3:33] Rob wrote the book Cruise Control in 2003, which is the first and only book of its kind. In 2013, he updated it to include the present-day landscape of certain drug use such as methamphetamines, social media and hook up apps, and marriage. [4:56] Gay men exist in different cultural expectancies and behavioral patterns than the heterosexual population. There is also a lack of cultural validation over time for long-term intimacy building. [5:31] Many gay men have grown up being encouraged to appear a certain way and hide or deny their sexuality. They are already accustomed to having a front-facing presentation to the world of who they really are not, which is also a what sex addicts possess. [6:22] Most gay men don’t get to date in high school and end up repressing their sexuality, so there is a delayed adolescence and they often explore sexuality, relationships and intimacy starting in their 20’s. [7:02] Unfortunately in the gay world, there aren’t a lot of role models for healthy long term dating and relationship building. Younger men often don’t get to see what a healthy gay coupleship looks like, because once gay men find their partners they typically leave the singles scenes and join the paired up community. [8:34] The tendency for males to want to dominate and lead may not produce the same type of synergistic male / female relationship that produces empathy, intimacy and compassion. If two men want to be together, they will have to learn these skills and work on their affiliation. On the other hand, lesbians usually need help with individuation in relationships, as they tend to enmesh quickly in the beginning. [9:54] If an individual is demeaned and devalued for their sexuality, it is natural for them to internalize and act out against it. [11:11] We don’t talk about HIV or AIDS very much anymore, even though we lost 350,000 people before we got medication. The cultural response is almost as if it didn’t happen, and that is something that gay men live with every day. [12:18] Men share common characteristics on how they view sexuality, relationships and intimacy. The traumas that drive straight men to act out sexually are the same ones in gay men. Men are visual by nature, and it’s not unusual for gay men to have body issues, food issues and stresses among their physical image. [13:58] Gay men act out in similar ways as straight men, whether it’s a hookup app, webcams, a club, or a one-night stand. Grindr has been helpful of taking gay men out of dark alleys and put them on the same dating and relationship ground as heterosexuals. [18:03] The #2 leading addiction problem in America after opioid addiction is ChemSex. It’s difficult to compartmentalize what pieces belong to the sex addiction, and what pieces belong to drug addiction. Recovery from meth and sex addiction is a long and challenging process. [20:34] In treating gay male sex addicts, it is imperative for the therapist to know the lingo and how gay men view sexual experiences, not pathologize, and know that they will most likely need to learn intimacy. They will need guidance on finding places, hobbies activities to go to where they can grow their community, receive peer support and build their skills without being sexual. The therapist must be open to many non typical therapy topics such as sex toys, threesomes and open relationships. [23:04] Many times gay men believe part of being gay is having many sexual partners and experiences. That may be the case, but doesn’t have to be true for someone that is relationship and commitment seeking. [24:55] In the healing process where heterosexual and gay men are both present, the men bond together as men, rather than necessarily around sexualization or homophobia.   RESOURCES Sex and Relationship Healing @RobWeissMSW Sex Addiction 101 Cruise Control: Understanding Sex Addiction in Gay Men Shame Grindr The Urge to Merge   QUOTES: “Being a gay male who is a sex addict, it’s a difficult thing to identify, own and work past because of the cultural issues that are involved.”   “There are fewer cultural boundaries for potentially excessive sexual behavior among gay men.”   “Most gay men already know how to do that (have a front facing presentation of themselves that didn’t fully show who they are) because they grew up hiding their sexuality.”   “Homosexuals have not had the 2-3000 years of relationship building experiences and skills, because it has never been acceptable.   “Being a gay woman or man means you live in a subculture that is exposed to extensive cultural, legal, and religious oppression directly related to your sexuality.”   “It all adds up to the same thing if you are an addict - that hole in the soul that never gets filled up and you are always running looking for a rescue.”

Healthy Dating in Recovery with Jonathon Taylor and Jackie Pack

Jonathon Taylor and Jackie Pack are on a mission to help people know what healthy dating and true intimacy look like. On today’s episode, they join Rob for a talk about their own journey as Licensed Therapists, their great work with One Layer Deeper, the common struggles they find from men and women moving from addiction to dating, the mistakes addicts make when they do go back in the dating pool, and their very own Dating Intensives.   TAKEAWAYS: [3:00] Addicts tend to pick up other people’s issues and focus on the person they are dating rather than themselves, possibly to control and evade feelings of isolation and lack of control. [6:04] One of the things that surprises Jonathon and Jackie most in their work is the wants, needs and desires men and women show in relationships that may have otherwise been clouded and buried in addiction. [7:19] When a sex addict goes out in the dating world without the flirtation, seduction and the need for control, they are actually quite vulnerable. That fear and anxiety is a large part of what addicts try to avoid. [10:20] Profound changes happen in addiction within a group dynamic with the common intention is getting sober and supporting individual recovery. It’s scary often times for individuals to move into the “wild” dating scene where heartbreak, emotion and intimacy must occur to feel genuinely loved and appreciated. [11:57] Jackie and Jonathon speak about their Intensives, and how the outcomes usually are deeper and wider than ever imagined. [14:44] Love addicts realize that dating is a numbers game, and often when the second or third date isn’t working out, they just give up. When in actuality, dating in recovery is conversation, a “get to know you” type of activity such as a walk in the park, and short periods of time where you get together and get to know someone. There are multiple reasons people date including friendship and companionship, rather than just being enmeshed or focused on sex. [19:46] Jonathon and Jackie help men and women become informed and authentic partners within their own relationships. Whereas before someone may have felt unlovable and hopeless, they teach their clients how to pick a date based on appreciating someone for their core values. [25:29] Octytocin is the hormone in our brain that bonds us to our loved ones, and often released on the women’s behalf typically during sex. In Jonathon and Jackie’s intensive, they coach women on dating to enjoy themselves rather than sole focus of becoming bonded and dependent on their partner. [30:20] Jackie defines trauma as “anything else than nurturing at critical points.”   RESOURCES Sex and Relationship Healing @RobWeissMSW Sex Addiction 101 Healing Paths Recovery If the Budda Dated If the Budda Married One Layer Deeper   QUOTES: “I see a lot of men early in recovery discover for the first time that they get to take a very active role in creating relationships, instead of the relationship just forming around them.” “It moves into a back and forth chess game into a really collaborative process.” “You have to have a little of that spark to date someone, but too much of it and you might not know who they are.” “Half the battle is not stopping the behavior, it’s learning to be intimate.”

Working with Betrayed Partners with Michelle Mays

Michelle Mays joins the podcast to talk about how the model of working with partners of addicts, her own story of partner betrayal and how it fueled her to make a positive impact in the field, her complex betrayal trauma model, and how partners that have been cheated on finding their way to healing themselves and find peace again.   Michelle runs PartnerHope site and has an amazing treatment center of her own, the Center for Relational Recovery.   TAKEAWAYS: [1:25] Michelle Mays received her Masters in Counseling in 2001 in Seattle, Washington where she then opened a private practice. In 2005 she crossed the country and moved back to Northern Virginia where she opened a private practice in Leesburg. One of Michelle’s passions is to educate and train other counselors to become excellent providers of care and healing for clients. In 2011 Michelle founded the Center for Relational Recovery, a counseling and training center focused on providing leading-edge treatment to sex addicts, partners of sex addicts, trauma survivors, and those struggling with relationship issues. [2:45] Michelle herself was in a relationship with someone that was a sex addict, so she had her own journey dealing with the hurt and struggle of getting help. She found that many people didn’t understand addiction treatment, and they minimized her confusion, pain, anger and distress. [8:23] When betrayed partners come in reeling from the pain of infidelity, they are in the middle of an unfolding trauma. Michelle realizes that it is a very visceral response, and it’s important for the therapist to realize they are seeing people in the middle of a crisis. [11:23] It’s important for therapists to notice their own stress levels and deal with them appropriately rather than trying to lessen someone’s pain due to their own internal feelings of overwhelm to a strong and emotional reaction. [13:13] Grief counselors know that people are blaming themselves and feeling a lot of remorse. Rob’s experience is that partners coming in who have just been betrayed also are experiencing grief, and therefore remorse. [14:51] Michelle has developed a model for working with complex betrayal trauma, which looks at three different components that bleed together. Attachment trauma affects the way your attachment system has been impacted by the betrayal, and how the healthy bond has been disrupted and impacted. When things are traumatic in the relationship, it deregulates the partner rather than providing a sense of safety. Emotional and psychological trauma which are the result of being lied to and being manipulated in your perception of reality. This creates doubt and is most definitely a form of abuse. Rob says the intention of the cheater is not to hurt their partner, in fact, they are not thinking about the other partner's emotions at all. They are trying to cover their own tracks, without much thought to anyone else’s feelings.   Sexual trauma ranges across the board and affects many facets of the partner’s identity and sexual confidence. [27:23] The betrayed partners must fully understand the depth of the betrayal, so they can know all the information, feel the pain and move on. Michelle says it takes at least a year for the betrayed partner to begin to feel like themselves again in the relationship. [27:48] When partners do detective work, they may find bits and pieces that hurt them more. It takes the other partner to sit down and tell them everything so they can get a full idea of what’s happening. [30:01] The more Michelle looks at research on attachment, the more she understands why such a high number of partners stay together after a betrayal. [30:30] On her website for betrayed partners, Partner Hope, Michelle has written about the shame that betrayed partners feel when deciding to stay. Our cultural story about leaving and never looking back is very different from the reality of what is happening. [33:11] At the Center for Relational Recovery, Michelle and her team treat the addict, partner and the relationship all at one time.   RESOURCES Sex and Relationship Healing @RobWeissMSW Sex Addiction 101 Prodependence: Moving Beyond Codependency Partner Hope Center for Relational Recovery michellemays@relationalrecovery.com   QUOTES: “There’s this idea that if your partner cheats on you and you’re female, you have either done something or not done something. This causes partners to internalize and feel an enormous amount of shame.” “When you have a partner coming in to your office, there is no post for them, they are usually mid-trauma.” “When people pair up in long-term relationships, they actually become one biological unit. You truly become an organism together.” “Most addicts and cheaters are caught in a dilemma because they have competing attachments, their partner and the cheating or affair partner.” “If you can’t bear to be sexual with your partner, there is something seriously wrong.” “Detective work and sleuthing is a way to have control over an out of control situation.”

The Courage to Love with Paul Ginocchio

Today Rob welcomes respected colleague and filmmaker, Paul Ginocchio. Paul talks about his work as an MFT and CSAT, and the intention and inspiration behind creating his film The Courage to Love. He and Rob dig deeper on the difference between sex addiction and offending, the positive emotional impact upon men that stand up and speak out about their sexual problems, and about how Paul himself moved forward to find healing and redemption in his own struggles.   Paul’s willingness to share and put himself out there has created a path for many to help rebuild their own lives and find recovery and love that they may have never thought possible.   TAKEAWAYS: [1:09] Paul is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist, MFT, CSAT, with a private practice in the San Francisco Bay area. He specializes in couples therapy, and the assessment and treatment of sexual addiction. Paul is also the creator of the film The Courage To Love, a pioneering documentary film about sex addiction that tells the personal journeys of four individuals from the shame of sexual addiction to the hope and healing of recovery. [5:07] In Paul’s personal case of sex addiction, he felt it became an almost pathological need for release and validation to gratify him as an individual and his own self-worth. In his teenage years, he felt like porn was the first red flag where he knew he was out of control, but didn’t know what the term for it was or where to even begin to seek help.   [6:25] Paul went to his first meeting in the Mission District in San Francisco during the mid 90’s, and tells his account of how intimidating the first experience of talking about his issue was to him. He was petrified but knew he had something in common with the guys, even though their particular story was different than his. It took him a few years of attending on and off before he fully committed to the 12-step program with Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous. [10:22] Paul encourages first-timers to commit to attending at least five meetings, and understand that it’s normal and natural to compare yourself to others in the room, both for better or worse. [11:49] Paul has a background in documentary filmmaking and possessed a love for making film and videos since childhood. As part of his 11-step he went to a 10 day silent meditation retreat, and the idea of the film and the title came to him as he was mid-retreat. He started shooting it 2007 while in grad school as a therapist, and first tried to pull from his connections within S.L.A.A, but quickly realized most people wanted to remain anonymous and weren’t ready to be public about their addiction and struggles. Despite his initial hesitation, he appeared as a subject in the video, and found Jay by googling “sex addiction memoirs”. Jay then introduced him to Greg, and years later Silvia got in touch and she was added, which has been a saving grace to connect females to the film. [15:56] Paul chose to go even beyond sex addiction and include Jay, who was an offender and who acts out in exhibitionism. [17:46] Exhibitionism and voyeurism are misdemeanor offenses, and often have highly addictive components. Sexual offending is exhibiting and engaging in nonconsensual sex and/or behavior. The Courage to Love film gives hope to the offender community, that there is a place to go and get help. [21:46] Paul talks about how the film has affected his work as a therapist, and the ability for the stories in the film to inspire others to open up and share their own stories. If he had to make a new film today, he would broaden the perspective to include the partner and spouses of addicts and couples in recovery. [30:15] The landscape of today’s modern digital age produces a much different plight than over the recent decades.   RESOURCES Sex and Relationship Healing @RobWeissMSW Sex Addiction 101 Out of the Doghouse Out of the Doghouse for Christian Men The Courage To Love The Courage to Love on Amazon The Courage to Love on YouTube S.L.A.A. Erica Garza - Getting Off Robert Weiss on Megyn Kelly Today Discussing Female Sex Addiction Paul Ginocchio   QUOTES: “All of us were out of control at some point in our journey, and personally crazy in the world around sex.”  - PG “To hear other men talk about their struggles and their emotions, there was a part of me that thought it was awesome, yet terrifying as well.” - PG “I bumped up against this closet of shame that I thought wasn’t going to be there because I knew so many people for so many years in recovery.”  - PG “The secrecy of the disease of addiction is part of the stigma.”  - RW “The only understanding I had of sex addiction was my own journey, and all that I read.” - PG “A therapist is only as good as the work they have done on themselves.” - RW “When we get to diffuse that shame and that self-hatred and give people hope, change happens quickly.” - RW

Rebuilding the Lost Connection in Human Sexuality with Dr. Carol Clark

Dr. Carol Clark, Board Certified Sex Therapist and Board Certified Transgender Care Therapist, joins Ron for a talk on human sexuality, addiction and intimacy. She and Rob discuss what it really means to be a sex addict, the difference between true addiction and a behavior that is deemed unacceptable, and how we face, process, and move forward in situations that are often confusing and difficult.   Lastly, Dr. Clark shares the variety of interventions that she currently uses to assist clients seeking personal growth and mental health. She is Certified in Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing and specializes in treating sex addiction and gender dysphoria.   TAKEAWAYS: [3:51] Dr. Clark gets a lot of questions relating to sexuality and sexual identity from both couples and individuals. She breaks down the definition and meaning behind the words “gay”, “bixsexual” and “homosexuality”, and how they relate to sex and gender, and addiction. [5:03] Dr. Clark defines addiction as, “obsessive compulsive, out of control behavior done in spite of negative consequences to self or others.” In a sex addiction, sex is the drug of choice. There are many aspects to sexuality and attraction, including development in puberty and adolescent stage of life. To fully know if someone is an addict, there is much to be discovered, history to uncover and analyzing the energy that goes into the behavior. [9:56] When we get stuck at different parts of life, we must address the trauma, no matter how small. It’s traumatic for an individual to question their orientation with their loved ones denying their feelings or even threatening impending consequences if they were to follow their impulses. Rob sees people from very conservative or morality driven environments struggle with sexuality more than people who don’t come from those environments. [11:54] When someone is looking to get help, or even just to uncover what may be going on with their own arousal or orientation issues, it is important they seek someone that has education in Human Sexuality. [14:27] Whereas intimacy is about connection, addiction is about disconnection. Rob quotes a friend, “Sex for sex addicts, with a partner who they are really committed to, is not about being horny, it’s about being willing.” A lot of sex addicts are so used to being immediately aroused by a new stimulus, they often feel disappointed when they don’t feel that with their long term steady partners. [16:28] Dr. Clark’s book, Addict America: The Lost Connection, explores our culture’s tendency to look externally for internal validation. This never fills us, and sends us into an addictive place, seeking more with no success. [18:25] Rob explains the term secondary gains, and how for some people it may be just a simple behavior such as going to get a drink, or having sex as a way to foster intimacy and connection. For others, they will do a behavior to try and fill their void, or numb their pain. [23:21] Dr. Clark says that when someone comes in to her office who has been encouraged to deny or push away any part of who they inherently are, there is much work to be done. [23:40] Dr. Clark helps her clients process negative events and turn them around through EMDR, or Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. After they reprocess the old memories, they can move forward and explore what is congruent with their own beliefs. [30:43] No couples are going to agree 100% of the time on sexual desires and what makes them aroused. Dr. Clark and Rob both agree that what is important is the communication between partners to identify what works for that particular relationship. The world of sex addiction is becoming less rigid about a one size fits all approach for everyone, and becoming articulated towards what works for that individual and their love lives.   RESOURCES Sex and Relationship Healing @RobWeissMSW Sex Addiction 101 Out of the Doghouse Out of the Doghouse for Christian Men Addict America: The Lost Connection Hannah Gadsby iicsphd@gmail.com Clinical Sexology Phd Therapy Certification Training   QUOTES: “It comes back to behavior and what the thoughts are behind that behavior.” “Addiction is about objectification. A sex addiction is about addiction more than sex.” “Just because you don’t like something around your sexual behavior doesn’t mean it’s addiction.” “I’d like you to think about sex as an expression of intimacy, and being open and connected with another person.” “We would like sex with a partner to be about intimacy and connection.” “Our addiction is stimulation, that is really what we get addicted to.” “We are born to be optimally sexual, and then we get messages about what is okay, and what’s not okay, and we do have some of the hard wiring.”